I'm Almost Sad that I'm Right!

A few weeks ago I wrote a blog post called Who's Your Dadddy It was about my ancestor Betsey Norman who was born circa 1822 in Brixham Devon. An online source (in fact 2 online trees) showed different parents for her than I had. And the online information did have pretty good sourcing for all the material and info on the family.

On checking my genealogy program I saw that I'd never obtained Betsey's marriage certificate to William Henry Williams. So I really couldn't be sure I had the right parents at all! I'd found a baptism record in the Brixham Church records and made the terrible error of assuming it was for MY Betsey!

Baptisms Brixham Devon: Betsy Norman, d/o William & Elizabeth (labourer) 13 Oct 1822

I have not yet found Betsey in the 1841 census but the online tree had her in Barnstaple (I'd have expected to see her in Brixham) as an 18 year old with father Nicholas Norman age 55

I began to doubt myself.  I do have Betsey in the 1851 census:

1851 Census Brixham, Devon. Lower Brixham:
161 Pinkey's Row:
Williams, Betsey, 28, fisherman's wife, b. Brixham
Mary A. dau, 2, b. Brixham
Hannah A. dau. 11 mos. b. Brixham
Jane Weysmouth, 15, visitor, b. Brixham

So I sent for the certificate of marriage from GRO. I'd also noted that the same source who had a different set of parents for Betsey had a different father for her husband, also my ancestor, William Williams.

I was doubting myself big time. But I consoled myself with the thought "Hey, It would be kind of fun to have two entirely new lines to research!"

Well, the certificate came today. And guess what? I was right. Both Betsey and William have the fathers I originally found for them. Betsey's father's name is given as William Norman, not Nicholas Norman as the online Family Tree has. William's father is noted as William Williams, not Richard Williams as given in the same online tree.


Here are the details the marriage record provides:

1847. Marriage solemnized at the Church in the Parish of Brixham in the County of Devon. June 13th. 

William Henry Williams, full age, bachelor, Mariner residing Brixham. Father's name William Williams, Mariner

Betsy Norman, full age, spinster, dressmaker, residing Brixham, Father's name William Norman, Labourer. Married in the Parish Church. 

Witnesses: Sarah Bennett & Sarah Edwards Narramore. William signed an "X" for his mark.

Now to search for Sarah Bennett and Sarah Edwards Narramore and see if I can figure out if they were friends or family!

And I'll have to go and post comments (Corrections) on the two online Family Trees on Ancestry.com We'll see how that goes, in the past I've found people reluctant to give up their own ideas even when presented with a definitive source.

Who's Your Daddy?!!

A few days ago I found out that I might have followed the wrong ancestral line on my Mother's English ancestry. I was contacted by another researcher who has different parents for my 3rd great-grandmother Betsey Norman born circa 1822 in Devon England. Does that mean she's right and I'm wrong? Not necessarily but....

My new-found contact has well-documented sources for Betsey and her family (spouse and children). So do I. We agree on our findings in Devon England census records from 1851 on. But I've never found Betsey in 1841. New-found contact has found a Betsey Norman in 1841 who could be my Betsey. Problem is that 1841 Betsey is with a different father than I have for her. And my new-found contact doesn't have any other proof of parents. So who is correct?

One other tiny piece of circumstantial evidence weighing in on the side of my new-found contact is that Betsey did name a son Nicholas which is the name of the father in that 1841 census record. Her other son was named after William's father so that's something to consider.

I opened my FTM program to look at what I have for Betsey and her parents. I haven't looked at this line in over 15 years so had to refresh my memory. Where did I obtain her parents' names? Ah, I see. About 20 years ago I searched through the Brixham Parish Records (Brixham being the place of birth Betsey gave in all the census records I found for her) In those records I found a Betsey born at the right time and assumed this was my Betsey. Perhaps it was but I never did try to find other proof!

Hmm. How did I make that very basic error of assuming without having more proof that the church Betsey was MY Betsey? Well - in my defense it was over 20 years ago. I wasn't as careful back then to not leap to conclusions without more proof, and I wasn't as experienced a researcher as I am now. It also was not very easy to obtain those English records as I can't easily order into a Family History Library. Okay enough excuses! I may have goofed.

Then I spotted something else of interest in my Family Tree Maker genealogy program. Betsey married her husband William Henry Williams around 1847. But I don't have their marriage record! Wow, I actually forgot that I didn't have it. Twenty years ago, obtaining a birth, death or marriage from England was difficult. You had to get the filmed indexes (remember I don't have a nearby FHL to order film), then find your ancestor's name and then find someone living in England to obtain the full record for you.

The FHL in Salt Lake City had a retrieval system for a few years where you could pay for one of their volunteers to obtain the actual record after you found what you needed in the microfilmed indexes. Unfortunately I didn't find out about that until a few years before that service ended.  I am guessing that I simply forgot I didn't have Betsey and William's marriage record.

Now we are fortunate to have FreeBMD to search the transcribed indexes and the ability to order the actual certificates online from GRO (General Register Office)  for England & Wales. What a boon! Even though it is a bit expensive to order a certificate now (GRO recently raised their prices from 7 L to 9.50L which converts to about $15.00 Canadian) it is well worth it if you are searching your UK ancestry.

And of course that 1847 marriage will seal it once and for all as to who Betsey's father is. Was I right to assume the birth in the Brixham church records was my Betsey? I'll let you know once the certificate arrives! I ordered it on Monday.

You'd think I'd be upset that the research I did on the parents I had for my Betsey might prove to be wrong. But I'm not. I'm actually kind of excited thinking that maybe I've got brand new lines to research! What fun! And I've reminded myself of an important lesson or two:

1. Don't assume, find more proof to substantiate what you find in one source.

2. Review your research a few times a year! I'd completely forgotten that I didn't have that 1847 marriage and could have obtained it a few years ago had I remembered.

Lesson learned and now to wait anxiously for that marriage record.

Don't Miss the Free BMD Postems!

Mike of Genealogy Gazette mentioned a little known and under-used resource for genealogists on his Twitter feed. I checked it out and realized he's right - it's a gold mine for genealogists that is overlooked for the most part!

Those of us with English ancestry no doubt know of Free BMD. This is the volunteer based website where you can search indexes to find the GRO reference for birth, marriage and death certificates. It's invaluable. I use it frequently. But I never realized there is a little feature called Postems.

Postems allow visitors to add information to an index entry once found. So a genealogist could find an entry for an ancestor, send for the certificate and then enter some of the details on the Postem for that index entry. Mike pointed out that if more genealogists filled these out we could all benefit.

Of course we have to avoid posting copyright material so I personally would not copy and submit the actual certificate word for word. But there's no reason a summary could not be submitted - for a birth registration you could simply submit the parents' names.

After reading Mike's tip, I immediately went to Free BMD and started adding my Postems for ancestors whose certificates I have, and who are found in the index on that site. I simply added one or two sentences such as this one for the marriage index entry for my ancestor Charles Simpson

"Charles Simpson married Sally Page. I have photos. Contact me at lorine@blah.com"

Now anyone looking for Charles will hopefully see that Postem and can contact me!

Further exploration of the FreeBMD website revealed that visitors can search all Postems! So I searched for "SIMPSON" I was amazed to get 220 hits! These are all Postems, that is, user-added notes and details. I'm not about to slog through all 220 so I simply began adding more targeted keywords to find the Simpson entries I would be interested in.

What a great resource. I hope all my readers with English ancestry will give it a try and start adding their own Postems. My New Year's Resolution is to add *ALL* of my English ancestors' certificate details to the FreeBMD Postems in the year 2011. Why  not join me?

Using Ireland Civil Registration Indexes to obtain Vital Stats Certificates: Step 3

Continuing from Step 2 of Using Ireland Civil Registration Indexes to obtain Vital Stats Certificates

The Irish marriage certificate I received was almost identical to English Marriage Certificates I have ordered and contained the following information:

When married
[First] Name and Surname [of bride and groom]
Age [of bride and groom]
Condition [of bride and groom - meaing were they single, widowed...]
Rank or profession [of bride and groom]
Residence at the time of marriage [of bride and groom]
Father's Name and Surname [of bride and groom]
Rank or profession of father [of bride and groom]
Church they were married in, Parish, City
Witnesses
Person marrying them

In case you are ordering another type of certificate, here is what you can expect to find on each:

A Pre 1997 Irish Birth certificate consists of date and place of birth, child's forename/s, fathers name, address and occupation, mothers name and maiden surname, name and address of person who registered the birth.

An Irish Death certificate consists of the deceased's name, date and place of death, marital condition, occupation, age at last birthday, cause of death, name and address of person who registered the death.

A pre 1957 Irish Marriage certificate consists of date and place of marriage, both spouses age, name, marital condition, occupation and pre-marriage address and their fathers names and occupations.

I think you will enjoy finding your Irish ancestor's Vital Records using these sites!

Using Ireland Civil Registration Indexes to obtain Vital Stats Certificates: Step 2

Continuing from Step 1 of Using Ireland Civil Registration Indexes to obtain Vital Stats Certificates, posted yesterday

At the GRO website I chose English and Marriage. An application form (in .doc format) will open. Depending what browser you use, you may get a choice to OPEN the file or SAVE it. I chose OPEN and the file opened in my browser window (IE6). The top part explains how to apply, either in person, by mail (post) or by Fax. The cost is provided and the choice of certificate.

The GRO office will supply a Certified Copy or a photocopy of an entry in the Registers of Births, Deaths and Marriages provided enough information is furnished by an applicant to enable the records to be identified. A photocopy of an entry will contain exactly the same details as a Certificate. A photocopy is ideal for genealogical purposes.

Next, and this is the really cool part - you can TYPE the required information right on the form in your browser window! You can also print the form off and fill it out by hand, but I like to type my details. Now here is a tip for you if you are typing right on the form in your browser. You must remove the same number of ..... as the characters you are typing (for eg MASSEY means I must remove 6 dots) so that the form fields still line up properly! Don't worry it is easier than it sounds.

Here you also fill out your payment details (Credit Card, Cash or Cheque). Be sure you tick off the box for PHOTOCOPY. Next you can SAVE the form to your computer so you have a copy, then PRINT page 2 (the Application) only. Note that cheques can only be written in Euro Dollars from an Irish bank so unless you have a bank account in Ireland, you can't use this option.

I ordered the photocopies mentioned on the form in Note 2 and which, at the time of this writing, cost 6 Euro Dollars for the first order and 4 Euro Dollars for additional orders. If you do not know how much a Euro Dollar is in your currency, you can use this handy Currency Converter online. At the time I wrote this post, 6 Euro Dollars converted to $8.26 US dollars or $9.44 Canadian dollars

After printing Page 2 of the form, you can either Fax or mail it to the address given at the top of the form. I mailed mine and about 4 weeks later, received my certificate in the mail.

Last step - what information is included on an Irish Vital Registration and what do they look like - will be posted tomorrow

Using Ireland Civil Registration Indexes to obtain Vital Stats Certificates

FamilySearch.org has Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes 1845-1958 online. This collection includes births from 1864-1958, marriages 1845-1958 and deaths 1864-1958

I wanted to use this index to order the full certificates from the GRO for Ireland. I was searching for a marriage for Rebecca Massey in Dublin Ireland.

At FamilySearch I got 1 page of possible hits and this was the information from the hit that was the one I wanted:

Name: Rebecca Massey
Registration district: Dublin South
Record type: MARRIAGES
Registration date - quarter and year: 1859
Film number: 101247
Volume: 5
Page: 212
Digital GS number: 4195893
Image number: 00401
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes 1845-1958

You will not be using anything from the index entry other than the invididual's surname and first name, year of marriage and location (Registration district) but you will likely want to copy all the information and save it. It is important to go first to the indexes for Irish Civil Registration in order to be sure the event is there and to be sure of the year and location of the event.

Next step is to go to the General Register Office certificate order page. Note that The General Register Office (Oifig An Ard-Chláraitheora) is the central civil repository for records relating to Births, Deaths and Marriages in Ireland. The GRO records of marriages other than Roman Catholic marriages date back to 1st April 1845 . Records of Births, Deaths and Roman Catholic Marriages date back to 1st January 1864.

An important note here is that if your ancestors lived in Northern Ireland, you cannot use this GRO website. Those of us with ancestors in Northern Ireland must go to the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland which holds different records. I'll talk about the PRO of Northern Ireland in a separate post, but for now, back to ordering our marriage registration from the GRO.

Next step at the GRO is to choose Birth, Marriage or Death and whether you want your Certificate Application Form in English or Irish

Step 2 will be posted tomorrow

Ordering English Certificates of Birth, Marriage or Death online

Recently I searched for the marriage record of my great great grandfather Charles Fuller who married Georgiana Golding in or near Lenham, Kent England. I was hoping to find out who Georgiana's father was since she is recorded in the Lenham Church Registers as being the daughter of "the widow Hannah Golding" Since I knew from previous research that Hannah Golding's husband had died 4 years before Georgiana's birth he was not the father! But who was?

In the census years after her birth Georgiana was always recorded with the surname Golding so her marriage registration was my last (slim) hope of finding out who her father was. Perhaps it was a dead end, perhaps Georgiana never knew her father's name but I had to turn that stone to find out!

The General Register Office for England and Wales website has an online form where you can order Birth, Death and Marriage Registrations.

The first time you use the site you must register but it is free and easy. After that you do not need to register each time, you just log in using your email address and password.

After logging in (or registering) you will see a screen with choices as to what certificate you wish to order

There are 10 - the first 6 for events registered in England or Wales. They are Birth, Marriage, Civil Partnership, Death, Adoption and Commenorative Marriage Certificate

The last 4 choices are for overseas events that were registered with British authorities. The choices are Birth, Marriage, Death or Civil Partnership Certificate

Next you are asked if you know the General Register office index and the year when the event was registered. NOTE: You must have the GRO index for England & Wales Birth, Marriage, Death before 1900. So you need to go to FreeBMD website or Ancestry.com Free BMD index. This is where you will, with any luck, find your ancestor and the details you need to order the certificate.

FreeBMD is being indexed by volunteers from 1837-1983 and this index is then passed on to Ancestry.com where it is also available for free.

Once you check the radio button for knowing the GRO index, you are taken to a screen where you fill out your delivery address details. If you have registered previously, this information is already there next time you log in! A very nice feature.

The next screen is where you fill out your information, including the details you found on the Free Bmd website (GRO index reference information)

You also get to choose what kind of delivery service you want either Standard or Priority (higher priced)

The GRO Reference Information that is required is

Year
Quarter
District name
Volume Number
Page Number

All of this is obtainable from the FreeBMD website or Ancestry.com website free BMD index (if you find your ancestor there).

Searching the marriages on Free BMD I had a hit!
Marriages Dec 1858
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Fuller Charles Hollingbourne 2a 788

Clicking on "788" (the page) brings up a list of all brides and grooms on that page, usually only 4 names. So you can easily see if this is the correct index entry for your ancestors (providing you know both parties names, or at least one full name and one first name for the second party)

Clicking showed me Georgiania's name along with Charles so I now knew the GRO index details needed to order their marriage registration. This is what I needed:

Year 1858
Quarter Dec. 1858
District Hollingbourne
Vol 2a
Page 788

After logging in to GRO website I filled out my required information and sat back to wait. Within 3 weeks the marriage registration arrived in the mail. I was quite excited to open the envelope and see what it said, but reminded myself I should not get my hopes up.

It seemed most likely that Georgiana never knew her father and so that part of the certificate would be blank. Or, as I have seen on other marriage registrations I've ordered when the individual is an illegitimate birth, the father's first name would be given, but no surname!

To my surprise and delight, Georgiana's father was named in full. His occupation was also given. I now had enough information to start my quest for her father. But that is another blog post.....